Comments on: CNN profile of two physicians in training, and their debt projection http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html Ramblings of an Emergency Physician in Texas Fri, 10 Feb 2012 00:40:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Gary Levin http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-16991 Gary Levin Tue, 24 Mar 2009 02:57:10 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-16991 All these stories are not just in medicine, and are a reflection of just how screwed up our whole economy really is. If you think of all the years we spend getting educated to become physicians, taking out loans to pay for overpriced medical education, and then add in the cost of delaying income, adding interest to the lost income...you will see the loss of income and the delay in saving for retirment this far outweights the 'golden image' of making it all worthwhile. High incomes are now gone for most specialties, overhead is soaring, and the need for cash flow creates many unethical situations for doctors in general. All these stories are not just in medicine, and are a reflection of just how screwed up our whole economy really is.
If you think of all the years we spend getting educated to become physicians, taking out loans to pay for overpriced medical education, and then add in the cost of delaying income, adding interest to the lost income…you will see the loss of income and the delay in saving for retirment this far outweights the ‘golden image’ of making it all worthwhile. High incomes are now gone for most specialties, overhead is soaring, and the need for cash flow creates many unethical situations for doctors in general.

]]> By: Goatwhacker http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-16955 Goatwhacker Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:53:03 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-16955 I was thinking about this article the other day, wondering how these two turned out and if they are now underwater on their condo in the housing crash. I maintain that if you're already in a lot of debt then do not take on more debt. If you're a poor resident it's not the time to be a real estate speculator, just accept a few more years of renting. I was thinking about this article the other day, wondering how these two turned out and if they are now underwater on their condo in the housing crash. I maintain that if you’re already in a lot of debt then do not take on more debt. If you’re a poor resident it’s not the time to be a real estate speculator, just accept a few more years of renting.

]]> By: yellowmutant http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-9288 yellowmutant Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:19:36 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-9288 This does strike me as excessive debt....I am a fairly recent grad from med school who went in without a nickel to my name, but went to my state's flagship medical school rather than a private one out-of-state, graduated with about $80K in debt, moonlighted a bit during residency, and had disposed of all debts after my first year in practice (in a competitive subspecialty). I remember meeting a D.O. intern during my training who was $250K in debt, planning to go into family practice, and I have to say he struck me as being a bad money manager. I wonder if there are differences among M.D.s and D.O.s in this situation, and between graduates of top and mid-tier medical schools.... This does strike me as excessive debt….I am a fairly recent grad from med school who went in without a nickel to my name, but went to my state’s flagship medical school rather than a private one out-of-state, graduated with about $80K in debt, moonlighted a bit during residency, and had disposed of all debts after my first year in practice (in a competitive subspecialty). I remember meeting a D.O. intern during my training who was $250K in debt, planning to go into family practice, and I have to say he struck me as being a bad money manager.

I wonder if there are differences among M.D.s and D.O.s in this situation, and between graduates of top and mid-tier medical schools….

]]> By: roger pedactor http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-9266 roger pedactor Thu, 03 Jan 2008 06:18:20 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-9266 I don't think these two are looking for your sympathy or panhandling. Just letting everyone know what type of dedication it takes to become a physician. The payment on there 200K condo is probably about the same as paying rent for the 3-4 years they will have the place. They are not complaining, just passing along the facts. I don’t think these two are looking for your sympathy or panhandling. Just letting everyone know what type of dedication it takes to become a physician.
The payment on there 200K condo is probably about the same as paying rent for the 3-4 years they will have the place. They are not complaining, just passing along the facts.

]]> By: anonymous http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-9107 anonymous Mon, 24 Dec 2007 01:23:44 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-9107 I think they made a good decision to buy. 200K for a home in Chicago is pretty unheard of, and they will get it all back when they sell in 5 years. Why waste the money and put it into rent? Also, if you read it carefully, they did not finish school with 250K each...this was with interest accumulation. This is reasonable considering the cost of living in Chicago. I think they made a good decision to buy. 200K for a home in Chicago is pretty unheard of, and they will get it all back when they sell in 5 years. Why waste the money and put it into rent? Also, if you read it carefully, they did not finish school with 250K each…this was with interest accumulation. This is reasonable considering the cost of living in Chicago.

]]> By: Goatwhacker http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-8698 Goatwhacker Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:00:31 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-8698 I've seen this article referenced a couple of other places so read it again. Two things stick out. One is that this couple bought a 200K condo despite already being 450K in debt. The "staggering" 700K figure includes that debt. It would be less staggering if they lived in a crappy apartment like I did (and probably many of us did) in residency. Actually between the two they are making 88K per year and probably could rent a fairly nice place and accumulate no additional debt. The other is that the male doc passed up entering the state medical school to attend a private one at an extra 20K per year. This is certainly his choice but as a choice he has to deal with the results - increased debt. This is not to diminish the real problems medical school debts cause, but this is not a particularly sympathetic couple. I’ve seen this article referenced a couple of other places so read it again. Two things stick out. One is that this couple bought a 200K condo despite already being 450K in debt. The “staggering” 700K figure includes that debt. It would be less staggering if they lived in a crappy apartment like I did (and probably many of us did) in residency. Actually between the two they are making 88K per year and probably could rent a fairly nice place and accumulate no additional debt.

The other is that the male doc passed up entering the state medical school to attend a private one at an extra 20K per year. This is certainly his choice but as a choice he has to deal with the results – increased debt. This is not to diminish the real problems medical school debts cause, but this is not a particularly sympathetic couple.

]]> By: Frank Drackman http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-8697 Frank Drackman Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:47:56 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-8697 WOW, I went to a state medical school in the mid 80's, couldn't afford the outrageous $6,000 tuition so signed up for the Navy scholarship. Did borrow $10,000 in student loans to buy a motorcycle and some other toys, couldn't beat the interest rate and being able to defer repayment while in the Military, of course the year in Cuba sort of sucked. WOW, I went to a state medical school in the mid 80′s, couldn’t afford the outrageous $6,000 tuition so signed up for the Navy scholarship. Did borrow $10,000 in student loans to buy a motorcycle and some other toys, couldn’t beat the interest rate and being able to defer repayment while in the Military, of course the year in Cuba sort of sucked.

]]> By: erdoc_in_tx http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-8664 erdoc_in_tx Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:37:16 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-8664 I have to say that I have seen a lot of people I've been acquainted with during medical school and residency make very foolish decisions with their money. This contributes to those outrageous loan amounts. A few people eluded to this in previous posts as well. A few examples from people I know: -trips to Europe during medical school on loan money -buying a $70,000 car prior to receiving a single paycheck out of residency, even when this person's credit card debt is excessive -4,000 square foot home prior to residency graduation I could go on and on and on but I won't. To each his own, some people are willing to take on the extra expenses and debt to enjoy themselves during the training process. Life is short after all. But for those who are complaining about debt, they'd better take a long look at their expenses and ask themselves if they are living within their means along the way. We get very little exposure to financial planning in our training process (if any at all) and a lot of people make some huge blunders. This may ultimately lead some to work more hours or more years than they want to later in their careers...... Something to think about. A lot. I have to say that I have seen a lot of people I’ve been acquainted with during medical school and residency make very foolish decisions with their money. This contributes to those outrageous loan amounts. A few people eluded to this in previous posts as well. A few examples from people I know:
-trips to Europe during medical school on loan money
-buying a $70,000 car prior to receiving a single paycheck out of residency, even when this person’s credit card debt is excessive
-4,000 square foot home prior to residency graduation

I could go on and on and on but I won’t. To each his own, some people are willing to take on the extra expenses and debt to enjoy themselves during the training process. Life is short after all. But for those who are complaining about debt, they’d better take a long look at their expenses and ask themselves if they are living within their means along the way. We get very little exposure to financial planning in our training process (if any at all) and a lot of people make some huge blunders. This may ultimately lead some to work more hours or more years than they want to later in their careers……

Something to think about. A lot.

]]> By: anonymous http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-8598 anonymous Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:26:27 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-8598 jerry-i agree with you in principle that medical students and residents currently are crying a bit too loudly. i do think, however, that deferring loan repayment and interest through residency is not an unreasonable request. even if they have to forbear, the interest service on what now is 250k loans would cause those loans to grow to (even more) ridiculous levels. residency salaries are a established by a cartel system. if we could free the salaries so that programs would have to compete with each other then i would think we may not need to defer the repayments. the thing is that the world is tougher for everyone. college grads may have 40k in debt when they finish undergrad. there is no guarantee that they will be able to pay those loans back either. we probably as a society should really consider how we spend our educational dollars. maybe we need to make sure affordable college is readily available for the general population before worrying about our medical school debt. in the interests of transparency my wife and i have over 250k in educational loans at 8+%. we don't have the biggest house or the fanciest cars, but we are comfortable several years out or training. of course we are on the thirty year payment plan for educational loans and our loan payment is bigger than our mortgage. we could pay it off faster but we are putting the money into our kids college funds and retirement instead. if we time it right we may die before paying back the educational loans but after paying for the kids educations. :) to the medical students and residents-although it is hard to imagine, i am not preoccupied with the loan amount or my income. when i was in training i spent a lot more time worrying about it. you just learn to accept the loan payment as part of the budget. if anything i would take less money to be at home more with family. i think you guys will be the same, although certainly ymmv. people will always scream the sky is falling. keep the faith. jerry-i agree with you in principle that medical students and residents currently are crying a bit too loudly. i do think, however, that deferring loan repayment and interest through residency is not an unreasonable request. even if they have to forbear, the interest service on what now is 250k loans would cause those loans to grow to (even more) ridiculous levels. residency salaries are a established by a cartel system. if we could free the salaries so that programs would have to compete with each other then i would think we may not need to defer the repayments.

the thing is that the world is tougher for everyone. college grads may have 40k in debt when they finish undergrad. there is no guarantee that they will be able to pay those loans back either. we probably as a society should really consider how we spend our educational dollars. maybe we need to make sure affordable college is readily available for the general population before worrying about our medical school debt.

in the interests of transparency my wife and i have over 250k in educational loans at 8+%. we don’t have the biggest house or the fanciest cars, but we are comfortable several years out or training. of course we are on the thirty year payment plan for educational loans and our loan payment is bigger than our mortgage. we could pay it off faster but we are putting the money into our kids college funds and retirement instead. if we time it right we may die before paying back the educational loans but after paying for the kids educations. :)

to the medical students and residents-although it is hard to imagine, i am not preoccupied with the loan amount or my income. when i was in training i spent a lot more time worrying about it. you just learn to accept the loan payment as part of the budget. if anything i would take less money to be at home more with family. i think you guys will be the same, although certainly ymmv.

people will always scream the sky is falling. keep the faith.

]]> By: Goatwhacker http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html/comment-page-1#comment-8594 Goatwhacker Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:21:42 +0000 http://gruntdoc.com/2007/11/cnn-profile-of-two-physicians-in-training-and-their-debt-projection.html#comment-8594 I'm going to second Jerry on this. When people complain about taxpayers not subsidizing their loans enough it's hard for me to drum up much sympathy. The implication that wanting people to pay back loans quicker will lead to 19th century medicine is ridiculous. I know when I was a student and resident I felt sorry for myself a lot, looks like things haven't changed. I’m going to second Jerry on this. When people complain about taxpayers not subsidizing their loans enough it’s hard for me to drum up much sympathy.

The implication that wanting people to pay back loans quicker will lead to 19th century medicine is ridiculous. I know when I was a student and resident I felt sorry for myself a lot, looks like things haven’t changed.

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