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	<title>Comments on: Transfers due to Incompetence</title>
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	<description>Ramblings of an Emergency Physician in Texas</description>
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		<title>By: Dr. Kranky</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11149</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Kranky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 02:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11149</guid>
		<description>Thank you for that clever rejoinder 911.  That&#039;s   pretty typical of how I&#039;ve seen you respond to things that rub your fur the wrong way.  Why don&#039;t you post a similar protest to the ER docs complaining about consultants??  I did nothing but turn the tables on you with exactly the same (justified) complaints.  I&#039;m sure YOU are a real treat to work with in the ER, given the fact that YOU have absolutely no idea what consultants have to go through after hours, NOT, mind you &quot;on shift.&quot;

Want to have an intelligent discussion on a point of disagreement?  Fine.  Whan to act like an idiot and hurl insults needlessly?  Get your own blog and reign like an anal sphincter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for that clever rejoinder 911.  That&#8217;s   pretty typical of how I&#8217;ve seen you respond to things that rub your fur the wrong way.  Why don&#8217;t you post a similar protest to the ER docs complaining about consultants??  I did nothing but turn the tables on you with exactly the same (justified) complaints.  I&#8217;m sure YOU are a real treat to work with in the ER, given the fact that YOU have absolutely no idea what consultants have to go through after hours, NOT, mind you &#8220;on shift.&#8221;</p>
<p>Want to have an intelligent discussion on a point of disagreement?  Fine.  Whan to act like an idiot and hurl insults needlessly?  Get your own blog and reign like an anal sphincter.</p>
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		<title>By: 911doc</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11142</link>
		<dc:creator>911doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11142</guid>
		<description>good one dr kranky, 
good one. i&#039;m sure you are a pleasure to deal with and have a keen insight into what the er guys go through every shift. you are a putz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good one dr kranky,<br />
good one. i&#8217;m sure you are a pleasure to deal with and have a keen insight into what the er guys go through every shift. you are a putz.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Kranky</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11141</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Kranky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 22:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11141</guid>
		<description>How about &quot;Consults due to Incompetence&quot; on the part of the ER doctors?  This was alluded to briefly further up, but not commented upon.  Trust me, as a specialist I tire of having to respond to &quot;serious&quot; problems that in fact turn out to be simple things that the ER doc coudln&#039;t be bothered to take care of or, was incompetent to manage.  Like the suggestions above, perhaps we could start reporting such individuals to THEIR respective certifying boards for possible disciplinary action (up to and including supsension of privileges for those particular problems).  At my particular ER, this is NOT an occasional problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about &#8220;Consults due to Incompetence&#8221; on the part of the ER doctors?  This was alluded to briefly further up, but not commented upon.  Trust me, as a specialist I tire of having to respond to &#8220;serious&#8221; problems that in fact turn out to be simple things that the ER doc coudln&#8217;t be bothered to take care of or, was incompetent to manage.  Like the suggestions above, perhaps we could start reporting such individuals to THEIR respective certifying boards for possible disciplinary action (up to and including supsension of privileges for those particular problems).  At my particular ER, this is NOT an occasional problem.</p>
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		<title>By: mo</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11081</link>
		<dc:creator>mo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 07:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11081</guid>
		<description>I remember working in a very,very tiny thirty bed total for the whole hospital tiny and we had the opposite problem. We were grossly overstaffed. We had three general surgeons with one fancying himself a very good orthopod, two cardiologist/internists and fifteen family docs who all thought they could handle anything.We even had one infectious disease specialist who spent most of his time in Costa Rica.
This was for a very small Kentucky town that was a very short ambulance ride to some of the best hospitals in the US (in Nashville).
Our docs insisted on holding onto patients that had no business being in a hospital with no cath lab and a two bed ICU.
I can remember getting screamed at by some family doc martinet when I overrode his attempted admission of a five year old with bacterial meningitis who was comatose,intubated and requiring pressors. The ER doc and I held the line and had the child flown to a children&#039;s hospital where she ultimately survived but not without significant  deficits.
These guys truly thought they could handle anything.
I applaud the lazy, the possibly incompetent for knowing they either can&#039;t or don&#039;t want to provide the highest quality care...the alternative was damn scary and I got my behind out of that hospital within eight months.
I also know that reporting these people has little or no effect on their practice. They get a slap on the wrist or a lecture and they go right back to what they were doing. It&#039;s not worth wasting your energy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember working in a very,very tiny thirty bed total for the whole hospital tiny and we had the opposite problem. We were grossly overstaffed. We had three general surgeons with one fancying himself a very good orthopod, two cardiologist/internists and fifteen family docs who all thought they could handle anything.We even had one infectious disease specialist who spent most of his time in Costa Rica.<br />
This was for a very small Kentucky town that was a very short ambulance ride to some of the best hospitals in the US (in Nashville).<br />
Our docs insisted on holding onto patients that had no business being in a hospital with no cath lab and a two bed ICU.<br />
I can remember getting screamed at by some family doc martinet when I overrode his attempted admission of a five year old with bacterial meningitis who was comatose,intubated and requiring pressors. The ER doc and I held the line and had the child flown to a children&#8217;s hospital where she ultimately survived but not without significant  deficits.<br />
These guys truly thought they could handle anything.<br />
I applaud the lazy, the possibly incompetent for knowing they either can&#8217;t or don&#8217;t want to provide the highest quality care&#8230;the alternative was damn scary and I got my behind out of that hospital within eight months.<br />
I also know that reporting these people has little or no effect on their practice. They get a slap on the wrist or a lecture and they go right back to what they were doing. It&#8217;s not worth wasting your energy</p>
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		<title>By: IglooDoc</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11075</link>
		<dc:creator>IglooDoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 22:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11075</guid>
		<description>GruntDoc
  A real interesting topic.

EMTALA is really specific and, as you have found out, rarely applied except when it comes to things that your hinder care and slow you down. The, as Dr Leap says, it grows fangs, claws, develops bad breath and reached 20 stories in height. One day soon hospitals will realize that if they drop Medicare, the all this crap goes away (a whole other topic, but mark my words, hospitals will start dropping Medicare...)

 So, let&#039;s deal with the real world.

  The risk today is that if you push the issue, the specialist may balk and cease taking call, which in a smaller hospital could cripple the ER. The ramifications to you, in the mecca, are obvious. You will be getting all my ortho (for example) patients if my one ortho guy stops taking call, instead of the occasional &quot;comfort level&quot; patient. OTOH, if this situation is allowed to occur and goes unchecked then the specialist comfort level rapidly deteriorates after midnight, only to return at 7am. 

  What I do in the sending hospital is  notify our (useless) hospital administrator to expect an EMTALA call from the mecca. They usually will have a talk with the offending specialist (along the &quot;why are you turning away cash&quot; discussions... something hospital administrators understand).
  If I am working at the mecca, I usually get the name and number of the sending hospital specialist and give the name to our forced accepting specialist, and let those two hash it out. I also give the mecca (even more useless) administration a heads up call.

  Reporting docs to their boards becomes a slippery slope, and should be reserved as a nuclear option. And remember Newton&#039;s law: For every action there will be a reaction. I have seen stuff like this in up in court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GruntDoc<br />
  A real interesting topic.</p>
<p>EMTALA is really specific and, as you have found out, rarely applied except when it comes to things that your hinder care and slow you down. The, as Dr Leap says, it grows fangs, claws, develops bad breath and reached 20 stories in height. One day soon hospitals will realize that if they drop Medicare, the all this crap goes away (a whole other topic, but mark my words, hospitals will start dropping Medicare&#8230;)</p>
<p> So, let&#8217;s deal with the real world.</p>
<p>  The risk today is that if you push the issue, the specialist may balk and cease taking call, which in a smaller hospital could cripple the ER. The ramifications to you, in the mecca, are obvious. You will be getting all my ortho (for example) patients if my one ortho guy stops taking call, instead of the occasional &#8220;comfort level&#8221; patient. OTOH, if this situation is allowed to occur and goes unchecked then the specialist comfort level rapidly deteriorates after midnight, only to return at 7am. </p>
<p>  What I do in the sending hospital is  notify our (useless) hospital administrator to expect an EMTALA call from the mecca. They usually will have a talk with the offending specialist (along the &#8220;why are you turning away cash&#8221; discussions&#8230; something hospital administrators understand).<br />
  If I am working at the mecca, I usually get the name and number of the sending hospital specialist and give the name to our forced accepting specialist, and let those two hash it out. I also give the mecca (even more useless) administration a heads up call.</p>
<p>  Reporting docs to their boards becomes a slippery slope, and should be reserved as a nuclear option. And remember Newton&#8217;s law: For every action there will be a reaction. I have seen stuff like this in up in court.</p>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11074</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 21:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11074</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a general surgeon in my 3rd decade of practice.  My Board believes that I am Superman- it tests me (every ten years) on stuff that I haven&#039;t ever seen, or not since my residency.  Trust me, there are a lot of procedures that the Board believes I should be able to do that you would not want me doing on you.  I don&#039;t want an orthopod who does only spine procedures fixing my femur fracture either.  I&#039;m the best judge of what I can do, and in the absence of a mass casualty situation, my policy is that if I don&#039;t more or less routinely do a procedure at 2 p.m., it&#039;s not right for me to do it at 2 a.m. either.

In the old days, when docs were allowed to decide what they wanted to do and when they thought it best to do it, it was rare for anyone to die in the streets for lack of medical attention.  Now, with government, administrators, bureaucrats, lawyers, and various other regulators telling us what to do, where and when to do it, and whether and how much we&#039;ll be paid to do it, it&#039;s only a matter of time before people start dying, not in the streets, but in the ER, where they can force a facility to do the precious screening exam, but then only hope that there is a gullible specialist around who will subject himself to the stress, liability, and general unpleasantness of serving on an ER panel.  It&#039;s terrible that it has come to this, but, as they said in the movie, &quot;Who you gonna get?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a general surgeon in my 3rd decade of practice.  My Board believes that I am Superman- it tests me (every ten years) on stuff that I haven&#8217;t ever seen, or not since my residency.  Trust me, there are a lot of procedures that the Board believes I should be able to do that you would not want me doing on you.  I don&#8217;t want an orthopod who does only spine procedures fixing my femur fracture either.  I&#8217;m the best judge of what I can do, and in the absence of a mass casualty situation, my policy is that if I don&#8217;t more or less routinely do a procedure at 2 p.m., it&#8217;s not right for me to do it at 2 a.m. either.</p>
<p>In the old days, when docs were allowed to decide what they wanted to do and when they thought it best to do it, it was rare for anyone to die in the streets for lack of medical attention.  Now, with government, administrators, bureaucrats, lawyers, and various other regulators telling us what to do, where and when to do it, and whether and how much we&#8217;ll be paid to do it, it&#8217;s only a matter of time before people start dying, not in the streets, but in the ER, where they can force a facility to do the precious screening exam, but then only hope that there is a gullible specialist around who will subject himself to the stress, liability, and general unpleasantness of serving on an ER panel.  It&#8217;s terrible that it has come to this, but, as they said in the movie, &#8220;Who you gonna get?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Health Minded</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11072</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Minded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 19:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11072</guid>
		<description>I believe that certifying board should be notified when someone who holds certification from them do not feel capable of carrying through a medical precedure that they are supposed to know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that certifying board should be notified when someone who holds certification from them do not feel capable of carrying through a medical precedure that they are supposed to know.</p>
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		<title>By: Ten out of Ten</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11069</link>
		<dc:creator>Ten out of Ten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 14:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11069</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m at the smaller, sending hospital, and this happens not infrequently.  When I am asked to secure transfer because of an issue that falls within a given speciality but not within their &quot;comfort level,&quot; I ask our specialist to secure a receiving specialist at the receiving hospital.  

So for these questionable cases I&#039;d ask the sending ED doc to get the sending specialists to talk to the receiving specialist prior to accepting transfer.  Personally I&#039;d be hesitant to file a complaint to their board, I&#039;d rather put the onus on the accepting specialists to determine if the sending specialist&#039;s transfers are inappropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m at the smaller, sending hospital, and this happens not infrequently.  When I am asked to secure transfer because of an issue that falls within a given speciality but not within their &#8220;comfort level,&#8221; I ask our specialist to secure a receiving specialist at the receiving hospital.  </p>
<p>So for these questionable cases I&#8217;d ask the sending ED doc to get the sending specialists to talk to the receiving specialist prior to accepting transfer.  Personally I&#8217;d be hesitant to file a complaint to their board, I&#8217;d rather put the onus on the accepting specialists to determine if the sending specialist&#8217;s transfers are inappropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: 911doc</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11066</link>
		<dc:creator>911doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 07:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11066</guid>
		<description>agree with happy hospitalist but then expect blowback with the next consult to the same &#039;uncomfortable&#039; doc. no surprises here. specialists eschew small towns for the safety of large groups where their call is reasonable. EMTALA has made us fight each other and has killed collegiality (along with &#039;standard of care&#039; issues and the sometimes unreasonable fear of litigation). the real crisis on the doctor side is not in primary care, it is in the surgical subspecialties. who is going to do it? who is coming to my small town to do neurosurgery? no one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>agree with happy hospitalist but then expect blowback with the next consult to the same &#8216;uncomfortable&#8217; doc. no surprises here. specialists eschew small towns for the safety of large groups where their call is reasonable. EMTALA has made us fight each other and has killed collegiality (along with &#8216;standard of care&#8217; issues and the sometimes unreasonable fear of litigation). the real crisis on the doctor side is not in primary care, it is in the surgical subspecialties. who is going to do it? who is coming to my small town to do neurosurgery? no one.</p>
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		<title>By: beachdoc</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html/comment-page-1#comment-11063</link>
		<dc:creator>beachdoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 19:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/05/transfers-due-to-incompetence.html#comment-11063</guid>
		<description>I had a footling breech with a prolapsed cord about 15 years ago in a hospital that did not provide OB services.  Coincidentally, the &quot;GYN department&quot; was having a meeting in the hospital.  The on-call OB-GYN declined to come to the ER to provide care for the patient as he explained &quot;I don&#039;t have OB privileges in the hospital&quot; and &quot;don&#039;t care for that type problem.&quot;

No one in my administration ER or hospital nor the medical staff offered any support in the problem.  I guess nothing has changed.  That is one of the reasons I no longer practice hosptial based emergency medicine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a footling breech with a prolapsed cord about 15 years ago in a hospital that did not provide OB services.  Coincidentally, the &#8220;GYN department&#8221; was having a meeting in the hospital.  The on-call OB-GYN declined to come to the ER to provide care for the patient as he explained &#8220;I don&#8217;t have OB privileges in the hospital&#8221; and &#8220;don&#8217;t care for that type problem.&#8221;</p>
<p>No one in my administration ER or hospital nor the medical staff offered any support in the problem.  I guess nothing has changed.  That is one of the reasons I no longer practice hosptial based emergency medicine.</p>
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