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	<title>Comments on: California Medicine Man: ER Docs Feel the Police Use Excessive Force</title>
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	<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html</link>
	<description>Ramblings of an Emergency Physician in Texas</description>
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		<title>By: GruntDoc &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Medical Diagnosis: We Suck! - Patrol Tactics Channel - POLICE Magazine</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15988</link>
		<dc:creator>GruntDoc &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Medical Diagnosis: We Suck! - Patrol Tactics Channel - POLICE Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15988</guid>
		<description>[...] that a giant majority of EP&#8217;s thought police were using excessive force, and I agreed with California Medicine Man that it was at best ill-informed, and most likely [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that a giant majority of EP&#8217;s thought police were using excessive force, and I agreed with California Medicine Man that it was at best ill-informed, and most likely [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Laser Eye Surgery - A Risk Analysis For My Daughter &#124; Medical Information</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15552</link>
		<dc:creator>Laser Eye Surgery - A Risk Analysis For My Daughter &#124; Medical Information</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15552</guid>
		<description>[...] GruntDoc » Blog Archive » California Medicine Man: ER Docs Feel &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] GruntDoc » Blog Archive » California Medicine Man: ER Docs Feel &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15524</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15524</guid>
		<description>Cross posted from Kevinmd.com

POLICE ORGANIZATION SAYS ER DOCS SOMETIMES GIVE POOR CARE TO INJURED COPS

A survey of local police personnel reveals that many of them believe that ER physicians use the wrong type of suture in closing lacerations, prescribe incorrect antibiotics, or otherwise misuse their positions as healers when caring for their colleagues. When questioned, the police spokeperson was able to cite absolutely no data to confirm these beliefs, but she stated that &quot;Everybody says so, especially the instructors at the Police Academy.&quot; She added that the recipients of alleged poor care were afraid to complain, because they rely of the goodwill of the ER physicians and staff to help them when they are injured while on their beats protecting the populace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cross posted from Kevinmd.com</p>
<p>POLICE ORGANIZATION SAYS ER DOCS SOMETIMES GIVE POOR CARE TO INJURED COPS</p>
<p>A survey of local police personnel reveals that many of them believe that ER physicians use the wrong type of suture in closing lacerations, prescribe incorrect antibiotics, or otherwise misuse their positions as healers when caring for their colleagues. When questioned, the police spokeperson was able to cite absolutely no data to confirm these beliefs, but she stated that &#8220;Everybody says so, especially the instructors at the Police Academy.&#8221; She added that the recipients of alleged poor care were afraid to complain, because they rely of the goodwill of the ER physicians and staff to help them when they are injured while on their beats protecting the populace.</p>
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		<title>By: albatross</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15521</link>
		<dc:creator>albatross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15521</guid>
		<description>What would constitute evidence that police were using too much force?  A couple of the comments above (LE Rep, The New Guy) don&#039;t seem to offer much way of determining whether the police are or aren&#039;t regularly using too much force, or whether specific policemen are using too much force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would constitute evidence that police were using too much force?  A couple of the comments above (LE Rep, The New Guy) don&#8217;t seem to offer much way of determining whether the police are or aren&#8217;t regularly using too much force, or whether specific policemen are using too much force.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15513</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15513</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t know I was being obtuse.  I don&#039;t make my money doing med mal work.  I wish you guys would STHU and do something besides bitch to save medicine, something that actually changed the way you got paid and thus benefited us all!  I&#039;m just chuckling about how useless doctor &quot;surveys&quot; are on issues doctors know nothing about, yet you guys cite them as &quot;proof&quot; whenever they agree with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t know I was being obtuse.  I don&#8217;t make my money doing med mal work.  I wish you guys would STHU and do something besides bitch to save medicine, something that actually changed the way you got paid and thus benefited us all!  I&#8217;m just chuckling about how useless doctor &#8220;surveys&#8221; are on issues doctors know nothing about, yet you guys cite them as &#8220;proof&#8221; whenever they agree with you.</p>
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		<title>By: TheNewGuy</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15497</link>
		<dc:creator>TheNewGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15497</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s your point, Matt?  I know you wish doctors would STHU and stop attempting to interfere with your livelihood.  What else is new?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s your point, Matt?  I know you wish doctors would STHU and stop attempting to interfere with your livelihood.  What else is new?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15487</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15487</guid>
		<description>I thought physicians surveys like this were EXACTLY the kind of evidence we should be basing our decisions on?  Or is that only when we&#039;re discussing legal reform, where physicians know even less?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought physicians surveys like this were EXACTLY the kind of evidence we should be basing our decisions on?  Or is that only when we&#8217;re discussing legal reform, where physicians know even less?</p>
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		<title>By: Derrick L</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15428</link>
		<dc:creator>Derrick L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 06:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15428</guid>
		<description>I think this is another example of why you can&#039;t just read an article&#039;s abstract, but must look at the actual data.  If the question was phrased &quot;Have you seen a case of what may have been excessive force by a LEO in the last year&quot; then I would not be surprised if a majority said &quot;yes.&quot;

But look carefully at the question (I haven&#039;t seen the actual survey instrument) - things like &quot;MAY HAVE been excessive&quot; and &quot; A case&quot; (indicating a singular occurance).

I think that trying to spin this into a LEO vs ED MD is the wrong angle.  Realistically, ED physicians AND law enforcement officers want the same thing - criminals behind bars, nobody to get hurt, neither profession to be impugned by the rogue actions of the rare bad apple.  

As far as mandatory reporting goes, the REASON we report elder abuse and child abuse is because these populations are essentially unable to advocate for themselves, so we do so for them. However, if a mentally sound adult is allegedly arrested with excessive force, it is the responsibility of that adult to advocate for himself (and a system of review and ability to complain should be in place.) The role of the physician in this setting would be to document any injuries accurately and in a non-biased fashion so that the individual could report that information should s/he choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is another example of why you can&#8217;t just read an article&#8217;s abstract, but must look at the actual data.  If the question was phrased &#8220;Have you seen a case of what may have been excessive force by a LEO in the last year&#8221; then I would not be surprised if a majority said &#8220;yes.&#8221;</p>
<p>But look carefully at the question (I haven&#8217;t seen the actual survey instrument) &#8211; things like &#8220;MAY HAVE been excessive&#8221; and &#8221; A case&#8221; (indicating a singular occurance).</p>
<p>I think that trying to spin this into a LEO vs ED MD is the wrong angle.  Realistically, ED physicians AND law enforcement officers want the same thing &#8211; criminals behind bars, nobody to get hurt, neither profession to be impugned by the rogue actions of the rare bad apple.  </p>
<p>As far as mandatory reporting goes, the REASON we report elder abuse and child abuse is because these populations are essentially unable to advocate for themselves, so we do so for them. However, if a mentally sound adult is allegedly arrested with excessive force, it is the responsibility of that adult to advocate for himself (and a system of review and ability to complain should be in place.) The role of the physician in this setting would be to document any injuries accurately and in a non-biased fashion so that the individual could report that information should s/he choose.</p>
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		<title>By: TheNewGuy</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15419</link>
		<dc:creator>TheNewGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15419</guid>
		<description>My own law enforcement background makes me view this article through a very dim lens.  In short, I don&#039;t question what the officers did on the street.  Been there, done that... and these things always look different once the &quot;patient&quot; is subdued, and the restrospectoscope has been trotted out.

Until you&#039;ve seen the entire incident with your own eyes (or better yet, actually helped fight the suspect, including watch him/her nearly incapacitates other officers, before being dogpiled by the rest), you really don&#039;t need to be passing judgment.  There&#039;s a reason why Police use-of-force cases are judged from the standard of a &lt;I&gt;reasonable police officer&lt;/I&gt;, and not the usual &lt;I&gt;reasonable man&lt;/I&gt; standard.  

Sorry... judging police use-of-force isn&#039;t in my lane, and I&#039;m not in a hurry to monday-morning-quarterback the guys who actually do that job, and making me some sort of &quot;mandatory reporter&quot; isn&#039;t going to change that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My own law enforcement background makes me view this article through a very dim lens.  In short, I don&#8217;t question what the officers did on the street.  Been there, done that&#8230; and these things always look different once the &#8220;patient&#8221; is subdued, and the restrospectoscope has been trotted out.</p>
<p>Until you&#8217;ve seen the entire incident with your own eyes (or better yet, actually helped fight the suspect, including watch him/her nearly incapacitates other officers, before being dogpiled by the rest), you really don&#8217;t need to be passing judgment.  There&#8217;s a reason why Police use-of-force cases are judged from the standard of a <i>reasonable police officer</i>, and not the usual <i>reasonable man</i> standard.  </p>
<p>Sorry&#8230; judging police use-of-force isn&#8217;t in my lane, and I&#8217;m not in a hurry to monday-morning-quarterback the guys who actually do that job, and making me some sort of &#8220;mandatory reporter&#8221; isn&#8217;t going to change that.</p>
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		<title>By: Goatwhacker</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html/comment-page-1#comment-15418</link>
		<dc:creator>Goatwhacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/2008/12/california-medicine-man-er-docs-feel-the-police-use-excessive-force.html#comment-15418</guid>
		<description>The article seems to be leading towards the conclusion physicians should be mandatory identifiers and reporters of excessive force by police in the same way we report child and elder abuse. This is a role I would guess few physicians want.  An hour or two of lectures will not provide the knowledge docs would need to make these kinds of determinations.

I no longer do ED work but if I had been given the survey I would have to say yes, I saw cases where excessive force seemed to have been used.  I of course was usually seeing the patient after the struggle, and realized I was in no position to make a good judgment.  This is radically different than child and elder abuse where violence is generally presumed to be unnecessary.  You don&#039;t have to be in an ED very long to learn there are times when force is necessary to protect police, ED staff and patients.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article seems to be leading towards the conclusion physicians should be mandatory identifiers and reporters of excessive force by police in the same way we report child and elder abuse. This is a role I would guess few physicians want.  An hour or two of lectures will not provide the knowledge docs would need to make these kinds of determinations.</p>
<p>I no longer do ED work but if I had been given the survey I would have to say yes, I saw cases where excessive force seemed to have been used.  I of course was usually seeing the patient after the struggle, and realized I was in no position to make a good judgment.  This is radically different than child and elder abuse where violence is generally presumed to be unnecessary.  You don&#8217;t have to be in an ED very long to learn there are times when force is necessary to protect police, ED staff and patients.</p>
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