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	<title>Comments on: DB cannot help himself.  He hates ER docs, and won&#8217;t stop talking about it</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html</link>
	<description>Ramblings of an Emergency Physician in Texas</description>
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		<title>By: Goatwhacker</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19050</link>
		<dc:creator>Goatwhacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19050</guid>
		<description>This may not be the popular view, but to me it sounds like a BS admission.  Yes the patient got her workup done quicker and everybody got warm fuzzies but if I read the article correctly she did not meet accepted admission criteria.  This means if the admission is audited the hospital and admitting physician will have to defend the admission and there&#039;s a good chance the state will refuse payment.  Who probably WILL get paid is the ED doc (not much since she was Medicaid but something).

The ED physician should not expect the hospital and admitting doc to work for free because the system sucks when the patients don&#039;t meet admitting criteria.  I like the line in the WSJ article &quot;she told me she needed to be admitted to the hospital&quot;.  That&#039;s great he has the patients decide on whether they need admitted or not, it probably saves him a lot of decision-making.

I think Nurse K above has the right idea - I can&#039;t remember ever saying no to any doc that has asked me to work somebody into my schedule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This may not be the popular view, but to me it sounds like a BS admission.  Yes the patient got her workup done quicker and everybody got warm fuzzies but if I read the article correctly she did not meet accepted admission criteria.  This means if the admission is audited the hospital and admitting physician will have to defend the admission and there&#8217;s a good chance the state will refuse payment.  Who probably WILL get paid is the ED doc (not much since she was Medicaid but something).</p>
<p>The ED physician should not expect the hospital and admitting doc to work for free because the system sucks when the patients don&#8217;t meet admitting criteria.  I like the line in the WSJ article &#8220;she told me she needed to be admitted to the hospital&#8221;.  That&#8217;s great he has the patients decide on whether they need admitted or not, it probably saves him a lot of decision-making.</p>
<p>I think Nurse K above has the right idea &#8211; I can&#8217;t remember ever saying no to any doc that has asked me to work somebody into my schedule.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19041</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19041</guid>
		<description>You sure it wasn&#039;t &quot;defensive medicine&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You sure it wasn&#8217;t &#8220;defensive medicine&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: The Social Admission Service &#171; The Central Line</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19035</link>
		<dc:creator>The Social Admission Service &#171; The Central Line</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 02:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19035</guid>
		<description>[...] about Dr. Pines admitting an uninsured woman for a cancer workup. GruntDoc, another EP blogger, fires back across the bow that Dr. Centor hates EPs, and Dr. Centor writes back, bringing up an interesting point: why are we paying so much for social [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] about Dr. Pines admitting an uninsured woman for a cancer workup. GruntDoc, another EP blogger, fires back across the bow that Dr. Centor hates EPs, and Dr. Centor writes back, bringing up an interesting point: why are we paying so much for social [...]</p>
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		<title>By: GruntDoc</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19034</link>
		<dc:creator>GruntDoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 02:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19034</guid>
		<description>Heh.  I hadn&#039;t read the article.  Having read it, I agree with the WSJ physician.  That patient needed admission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh.  I hadn&#8217;t read the article.  Having read it, I agree with the WSJ physician.  That patient needed admission.</p>
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		<title>By: db</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19033</link>
		<dc:creator>db</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 01:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19033</guid>
		<description>Gruntdoc - the quote is not from my rant but from the linked article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gruntdoc &#8211; the quote is not from my rant but from the linked article.</p>
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		<title>By: Jabulani</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19031</link>
		<dc:creator>Jabulani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19031</guid>
		<description>IMHO, ER doctors (worldwide) are the same as our English GPs: Effluent Filters (you know, all those little nasties you have to sift your way through to get to the Important Stuff?!). Now there may be some who feel that effluent filters are not essential or that they are costly, but I&#039;m pretty sure I&#039;d rather not find out how my car functions without an air or fuel filter. So I&#039;m damn sure I don&#039;t want to find out how the medical world functions without the Effluent Filters!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO, ER doctors (worldwide) are the same as our English GPs: Effluent Filters (you know, all those little nasties you have to sift your way through to get to the Important Stuff?!). Now there may be some who feel that effluent filters are not essential or that they are costly, but I&#8217;m pretty sure I&#8217;d rather not find out how my car functions without an air or fuel filter. So I&#8217;m damn sure I don&#8217;t want to find out how the medical world functions without the Effluent Filters!!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg P</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19027</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 20:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19027</guid>
		<description>I think if we look at how fragmented decision-making can be on a practical level, and one delay leads to another, it can easily be argued that this patient was served well by her management.

Someone with a primary MD, someone who is a VIP, someone who has a relative of an MD will have an advocate to get the evaluation done with an efficiency of time. One of the things this patient received was some reassurance that someone cared about her. The logic that a matter of days or weeks makes little difference in the prognosis in a case like this is of no significant psychological comfort to the patient who is told that they likely have cancer.

Right now we have many forces which push people toward EDs -- limited office hours, not enough primary care doctors, doctors who use EDs as evening and weekend coverage. Someone might create some kind of &quot;intensive outpatient&quot; admission for these patients, but until they do, the current system fills a gap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think if we look at how fragmented decision-making can be on a practical level, and one delay leads to another, it can easily be argued that this patient was served well by her management.</p>
<p>Someone with a primary MD, someone who is a VIP, someone who has a relative of an MD will have an advocate to get the evaluation done with an efficiency of time. One of the things this patient received was some reassurance that someone cared about her. The logic that a matter of days or weeks makes little difference in the prognosis in a case like this is of no significant psychological comfort to the patient who is told that they likely have cancer.</p>
<p>Right now we have many forces which push people toward EDs &#8212; limited office hours, not enough primary care doctors, doctors who use EDs as evening and weekend coverage. Someone might create some kind of &#8220;intensive outpatient&#8221; admission for these patients, but until they do, the current system fills a gap.</p>
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		<title>By: GruntDoc</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19026</link>
		<dc:creator>GruntDoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 20:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19026</guid>
		<description>DB, 
I cannot find that quote in your article.  Where is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DB,<br />
I cannot find that quote in your article.  Where is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19023</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19023</guid>
		<description>I have been told by my consultants on occasion that &quot;you know, this is a weak admission, you should really send this home&quot; and then I follow along as they have a four day hospital stay with extensive testing.  If it was so weak then they have Option A - Come see and discharge the patient if they are so confident OR Option B - Admit to OBs overnight and make alternative arrangements for the outpatient workup.  When their neck is on the line after they get involved the unnecessary admission suddenly becomes the standard of care.  One of the most professional hospitalists I know will never attempt a block on the phone.  He will come down evaluate the patient and after laying hands on the patient and hearing the story will either admit as I desired or choose from the above two options and when he does I am confident that the right thing is being done for the patient.  He&#039;s not afraid of work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been told by my consultants on occasion that &#8220;you know, this is a weak admission, you should really send this home&#8221; and then I follow along as they have a four day hospital stay with extensive testing.  If it was so weak then they have Option A &#8211; Come see and discharge the patient if they are so confident OR Option B &#8211; Admit to OBs overnight and make alternative arrangements for the outpatient workup.  When their neck is on the line after they get involved the unnecessary admission suddenly becomes the standard of care.  One of the most professional hospitalists I know will never attempt a block on the phone.  He will come down evaluate the patient and after laying hands on the patient and hearing the story will either admit as I desired or choose from the above two options and when he does I am confident that the right thing is being done for the patient.  He&#8217;s not afraid of work.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://gruntdoc.com/2009/08/db-cannot-help-himself-he-hates-er-docs-and-wont-stop-talking-about-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-19022</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gruntdoc.com/?p=3824#comment-19022</guid>
		<description>That just kills me.  As an ED physician, I will be told on occasion, that a patient didn&#039;t need admission, but then the patient will have a 3 day hospital stay.  If the patient didn&#039;t need admission, why wasn&#039;t he discharged the next day???  Apparently, the admitting doctor needed 3 days to work him up and discharge the patient....who didn&#039;t need an admission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That just kills me.  As an ED physician, I will be told on occasion, that a patient didn&#8217;t need admission, but then the patient will have a 3 day hospital stay.  If the patient didn&#8217;t need admission, why wasn&#8217;t he discharged the next day???  Apparently, the admitting doctor needed 3 days to work him up and discharge the patient&#8230;.who didn&#8217;t need an admission.</p>
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